Hi, All!

I am not sure I know the correct word. In Russia we use the word "a male
goat" as an idiomatic sleng word meaning absence of respect, or when you
have a resentment to somebody. Does the following story sound funny in
English and can it be improved?

Three men from the USA delegation came to Russia and went to a big plant
to sign a contract. The director sees them into his cabinet and says to
his secretary girl, "Well dear -- one glass of cognac for me and three
tea for these goats." One man from the delegation says, "two tea,
please, I am a translator."

Bye, All!
Alexander Koryagin
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

I am not sure I know the correct word. In Russia we
use the word "a male goat" as an idiomatic sleng word
meaning absence of respect, or when you have a
resentment to somebody.

When I looked up "twit" in THE FREE DICTIONARY I found quite a lot of stuff you might find useful, including definitions & synonyms. In summary... a twit is a foolish, stupid, annoying, and/or insignificant person. I'm guessing that is more or less what you were thinking of here. :-)

Does the following story sound funny in English and
can it be improved?

Yes, on both counts. Long explanation to follow... [grin].

Three men from the USA delegation came to Russia and
went to a big plant to sign a contract. The director
sees them into his cabinet

|private office


Why not use the same verb tense throughout the story? I know we have discussed this issue already... but a tense change in mid-paragraph, unless the logic is obvious to me, still sounds wrong according to what I was taught. :-Q

and says to his secretary girl, "Well dear --

|female secretary

one glass of cognac for me and three tea for these
goats."

IOW he's such an important person he can drink alcoholic beverages on the job without offering any to persons he regards as inferior to himself... or at least he thinks he is. My sympathies lie with the translator already. :-))

One man from the delegation says, "two tea, please,
I am a translator."

Ah... so this story is not a commentary on the status of women. But to be fair, I'm writing as if the translator could be male or female.


On a sociological level, the translator may be thinking s/he works as hard as (and probably gets paid less than) other folk attending this meeting... yet, like the secretary, s/he is a highly skilled individual without whose help these guys would be unable to do their jobs. And if s/he's expected to talk as much as all of them do the need to wet his/her whistle may be greater.


In English, the translator's response could be a play on words too:

* I often hear young servers nowadays saying e.g. "two coffees" or
"two teas" when they mean "two cups of [whatever]". Perhaps the
translator has noticed this phenomenon as well. Either way, two
or more generally --> pluralization of a noun or pronoun.

* When people have more than one variety of tea in stock, they may
ask which a guest prefers. My mother-in-law used to offer China
tea or India tea. I reckon that in such situations a translator
might say "One cup of each, please... I'm bilingual."

* Depending on the intonation, and on whether s/he's addressing the
secretary or the director, the translator's reply could be heard
as "to tease"... an allusion to the director's bad manners. And
s/he sets a good example by adding "please", which he didn't do.


I see the translator's response as amusing when I think of situations in which e.g. a male teacher nearing retirement disagreed with our principal at staff meetings from time to time. I also notice that the actual words could be interpreted in more than one way, as is very common with jokes in English. :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi!Ardith,

On 30 Sep 2021, Ardith Hinton said the following...

When I looked up "twit" in THE FREE DICTIONARY I found quite a lot of stuff you might find useful, including definitions & synonyms.
In summary... a twit is a foolish, stupid, annoying, and/or
insignificant person. I'm guessing that is more or less what you were thinking of here. :-)

Down here, a 'Twit' was long=known as a "pregnant goldfish". Hence the
insult. Is that dictionary a revised version of history by milennials or one compiled by ignorant new world-ers? ;)

Cheers,
Paul.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/32)
* Origin: Quinn's Rock - stuck in a Linux VM, again! (3:640/1384)

Hi, Paul! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

When I looked up "twit" in THE FREE DICTIONARY I found
quite a lot of stuff you might find useful, including
definitions & synonyms. In summary... a twit is a
foolish, stupid, annoying, and/or insignificant person.
I'm guessing that is more or less what you were thinking
of here. :-)

Down here, a 'Twit' was long=known as a "pregnant goldfish".

According to Uncle Google, the idea that a "pregnant goldfish" may be referred to as a "twit" is an urban legend from Australia.

I see you reversed the order. Am I missing something? :-)

Is that dictionary a revised version of history by
milennials or one compiled by ignorant new world-ers? ;)

I cited THE FREE DICTIONARY in this case because it includes listings from various sources & because other people may be able to read it online. I'm happy with what the authors have to say about the issue. In addition, it saves me the effort of researching & retyping material from umpteen hard copies. :-Q




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi! Ardith,

On 02 Oct 2021, Ardith Hinton said the following...

Down here, a 'Twit' was long-known as a "pregnant goldfish".

According to Uncle Google, the idea that a "pregnant goldfish" may be referred to as a "twit" is an urban legend from Australia.

It's harkening back to the misty memory of long-gone youth. I did think, later, that it was a suggestive Monty Python line but cannot find any reference.

AH> I cited THE FREE DICTIONARY in this case because it includes

I did see that much later. Nice try. ;)

Cheers,
Paul.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/32)
* Origin: Quinn's Rock - stuck in a Linux VM, again! (3:640/1384)

Hi, Ardith Hinton!
I read your message from 30.09.2021 23:36

I am not sure I know the correct word. In Russia we
use the word "a male goat" as an idiomatic sleng word
meaning absence of respect, or when you have a
resentment to somebody.

When I looked up "twit" in THE FREE DICTIONARY I
found quite a lot of stuff you might find useful, including
definitions & synonyms. In summary... a twit is a foolish, stupid, annoying, and/or insignificant person. I'm guessing that is more or
less what you were thinking of here. :-)

Sorry for silence. I am busy with... guess with what? I am rewriting my ReformatorQuoter app for... Linux! ;-) Do you know that Windows, an
American operating system, has been declared in Russia as undesirable
product of an enemy state, and there had been issued an order to refuse
from it (in all state structures) and rewrite all applications to the
Russian version of Linux (a Debian clone). It it very funny and I have
some fun too, having a chance to meet with Linux and its developing tool Qtcreator. I like it in general, although the concepts of the program
should be changed and it will take time. But it will be cooler working
with different character coding systems.

Bye, Ardith!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.english_tutor 2021
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Paul! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

According to Uncle Google, the idea that a "pregnant goldfish"
may be referred to as a "twit" is an urban legend from Australia.

It's harkening back to the misty memory of long-gone youth.

Various people have reported they heard it in their youth & believed it at the time...

I did think, later, that it was a suggestive Monty Python line
but cannot find any reference.

... but now suspect it was meant to be a joke. Uncle Google has yet to find anyone who can recall where they first heard it. OTOH, I wouldn't put it past Monty Python. Dallas & I often watched the show as well... [chuckle].

I cited THE FREE DICTIONARY in this case because it includes

I did see that much later. Nice try. ;)

Thank you. Another reason, of course, is that a bunch of rude words in a single message might upset some folks. If I advise reading a dictionary, that's what English teachers do... and I didn't write the content myself. :-Q




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Ardith Hinton! -> Alexander Koryagin
I read your message from 30.09.2021 23:36

I am not sure I know the correct word. In Russia we use the
word "a male goat" as an idiomatic sleng word meaning absence of
respect, or when you have a resentment to somebody.

When I looked up "twit" in THE FREE DICTIONARY I found quite a lot
of stuff you might find useful, including definitions & synonyms.
In summary... a twit is a foolish, stupid, annoying, and/or
insignificant person. I'm guessing that is more or less what you
were thinking of here.

Did you use "twit" as "beep" when somebody on TV swears? Is "goat" so
indecent?

Does the following story sound funny in English and can it be
improved?

Yes, on both counts. Long explanation to follow... [grin].

Three men from the USA delegation came to Russia and went to a big
plant to sign a contract. The director sees them into his cabinet

|private office

Yea, there are many words in Russian when we are sure that they mean the
same in English. :)

Why not use the same verb tense throughout the story? I know we
have discussed this issue already... but a tense change in mid-
paragraph, unless the logic is obvious to me, still sounds wrong
according to what I was taught.: - Q

I agree. Although I saw many examples of it in the modern literature. It
looks like as if we put the reader into the situation we are telling
him. So, we have a kind of innuendo "once upon a time ..." And next we
are as if present at the place. Probably this can make the story more
vivid. Of maybe it can be considered as a free informal style?

and says to his secretary girl, "Well dear --

|female secretary

Although such informal "dear" can be applied to the girl only.

one glass of cognac for me and three tea for these goats."

IOW he's such an important person he can drink alcoholic beverages
on the job without offering any to persons he regards as inferior
to himself... or at least he thinks he is. My sympathies lie with
the translator already. :-))

He knows that American businessmen don't drink at work. How foolish of
them! ;-)

One man from the delegation says, "two tea, please, I am a
translator."

Ah... so this story is not a commentary on the status of women. But
to be fair, I'm writing as if the translator could be male or
female.

On a sociological level, the translator may be thinking s/he works
as hard as (and probably gets paid less than) other folk attending
this meeting... yet, like the secretary, s/he is a highly skilled individual without whose help these guys would be unable to do
their jobs. And if s/he's expected to talk as much as all of them
do the need to wet his/her whistle may be greater.

I think the story mostly tells us that Russians like to drink alcohol everywhere. So we find out actually that the translator is a Russian and
he probably doesn't mind to have a shot too.

In English, the translator's response could be a play on words too:

* I often hear young servers nowadays saying e.g. "two coffees" or
"two teas" when they mean "two cups of [whatever]". Perhaps the
translator has noticed this phenomenon as well. Either way, two
or more generally --> pluralization of a noun or pronoun.

I noted it. :)

* When people have more than one variety of tea in stock, they may
ask which a guest prefers. My mother-in-law used to offer China
tea or India tea. I reckon that in such situations a translator
might say "One cup of each, please... I'm bilingual."

I see.

* Depending on the intonation, and on whether s/he's addressing the
secretary or the director, the translator's reply could be heard
as "to tease"... an allusion to the director's bad manners. And
s/he sets a good example by adding "please", which he didn't do.

The boss certainly was not an example of a good person.

I see the translator's response as amusing when I think of
situations in which e.g. a male teacher nearing retirement
disagreed with our principal at staff meetings from time to time. I
also notice that the actual words could be interpreted in more than
one way, as is very common with jokes in English.

Yes. It is not necessary that the translator wanted to drink alcohol.
The understanding depends on our feeling of black humour. :)


Bye, Ardith!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2021

---
* Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

Sorry for silence.

Okay. Thanks for letting us know what's going on.... :-)

Do you know that Windows, an American operating system,
has been declared in Russia as undesirable product of

an enemy state,

No, I didn't until you brought up the subject.

I wouldn't put it quite that way, of course, but I understand a lot of people Over Here object to the system for various reasons. Dallas & I once knew a guy (now deceased) who spelled the name "Windoze"... perhaps because of its tendency to reduce the speed of his computer when it insisted that what it wanted to do was much more important than what he wanted to do & couldn't wait for him to finish the task at hand. I've had the same experience myself. And while I'm not a techie, I've heard Linux is reputed to be more secure.... :-)

and there had been issued an order to refuse from it (in

all state structures) and rewrite all applications to the
Russian version of Linux (a Debian clone).

All applications?? Sounds like a mammoth task! FWIW I notice some names you might recognize in the LINUX echo... and I believe at least a couple of the participants understand Russian. I'm not sure how much assistance they would be able to offer, however, if they're using an English-language version.

It it very funny and I have some fun too, having a chance
to meet with Linux and its developing tool Qtcreator.

Glad to know you're enjoying it, at any rate.... :-)

I like it in general, although the concepts of the program
should be changed and it will take time. But it will be
cooler working with different character coding systems.

I've heard it said that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger, and AFAIC there is often a certain amount of truth to such generalities. The most important lesson I learned in my high school geometry class, e.g., was that as long as there's no time limit I can figure out [whatever] eventually.... :-))




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

I am not sure I know the correct word [...].

When I looked up "twit" in THE FREE DICTIONARY I found quite
a lot of stuff you might find useful, including definitions
& synonyms. In summary... a twit is a foolish, stupid,
annoying, and/or insignificant person. I'm guessing that is
more or less what you were thinking of here.

Did you use "twit" as "beep" when somebody on TV swears?
Is "goat" so indecent?

I don't consider either to be a "swear word"... but I do consider it rude to describe anybody that way within their hearing. If the director spoke in Russian, assuming none of his visitors would understand, he was wrong.

Because the word "goat" often has negative connotations in English I understood what you meant. Because you were asking about synonyms, however, I chose one which might elicit more useful information from a desk dictionary... and in this case THE FREE DICTIONARY didn't disappoint me. It reports the way people actually speak, yet gives us fair warning about "coarse slang".... :-)

The director sees them into his cabinet

|private office

Yea, there are many words in Russian when we are sure that
they mean the same in English. :)

I've had the same experience myself... but this usage is more common in French than in English & may not be listed in English\English dictionaries.

a tense change in mid-paragraph, unless the logic is
obvious to me, still sounds wrong according to what
I was taught. :-Q

I agree. Although I saw many examples of it in the modern
literature.

In modern literature you'll also see things like dangling modifiers, sentence fragments, and what I'd call "wrong word" errors. During the 1960's, some influential linguists deemed it unnecessary to teach grammar to e.g. kids in junior high school whose major goal was to fit in with their contemporaries on the assumption that native speakers pick up on it intuitively. As a "front line worker" I can tell you this idea doesn't always work in practice.... :-Q

and says to his secretary girl, "Well dear --

|female secretary

Although such informal "dear" can be applied to the girl
only.

His use of the word "dear" in such a situation implies the secretary is female... and maybe we needn't specify there... but in general, I would not expect to hear any employee addressed that way in a business office. IMHO the informality could be taken to mean there's some extracurricular activity going on which she feels she must participate in if she'd like to keep her job. The relationship may be more of a father-daughter one, but we can't be quite sure.

My objection, though, was to the use of the word "girl" in reference to a grown woman doing what some people consider to be a menial job. Although not uncommon, it does imply a feeling of superiority in various cases.... :-)

It is not necessary that the translator wanted to drink
alcohol.

Agreed. What matters is that the translator knew what was going on, and had the power to make or break any prospective business deal... [chuckle].

The understanding depends on our feeling of black humour.

Yes. IMHO black humour depends for its effect on having an audience with life experiences similar to one's own. Russians often seem to imply they enjoy alcoholic beverages, but I hear this about others too. Such details may be most amusing when the joke is told by a Russian to a Russian audience. :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, alexander!

24 ᥭ 21 14:28, alexander koryagin -> All:

please, I am a translator."

Should it be "an interpreter"?

Have nice nights.
Stas Mishchenkov.
--- ��� ����� 祫���� �����, ⥬ ��⭥� ������� �����ﬨ.
* Origin: Lame Users Breeding. Simferopol, Crimea. (2:460/5858)

Hi, Stas Mishchenkov! -> Alexander Koryagin
I read your message from 30.10.2021 20:15

please, I am a translator."

Should it be "an interpreter"?

I believe both words are correct, but they have a bit different meaning.

If you interpret a phrase or something you actually explain it. For
instance, we can interpret the events in Ukraine, according to our point
of view.

If you translate you take one form of something and change it into
another form.

Some people tell that an interpreter is a person who works with the
spoken word, whereas a translator works with the written word. But it
IMHO sounds funny because of course an interpreter can translate a
written text too.

Bye, Stas!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2021

---
* Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

*** �⢥� �� ᮮ�饭�� �� _Carbon.Mail (Carbon.Mail).

Hi, Alexander!

01 ��� 21 11:21, Alexander Koryagin -> Stas Mishchenkov:

please, I am a translator."

Should it be "an interpreter"?

I believe both words are correct, but they have a bit different meaning.

If you interpret a phrase or something you actually explain it. For instance, we can interpret the events in Ukraine, according to our point of view.

This is the job of an interpreter.

If you translate you take one form of something and change it into
another form.

Often this is not enough to understand the translation.

Some people tell that an interpreter is a person who works with the
spoken word, whereas a translator works with the written word. But it
IMHO sounds funny because of course an interpreter can translate a
written text too.

;)

Have nice nights.
Stas Mishchenkov.
--- �� �� �� ����, ���騭 � ��ᥭ, ⠪ �yp���� � y�p��!
* Origin: Lame Users Breeding. Simferopol, Crimea. (2:460/5858)

Hi, Stas Mishchenkov! -> Alexander Koryagin
I read your message from 01.11.2021 19:30

If you translate you take one form of something and change it into
another form.

Often this is not enough to understand the translation.

Understanding is a separate thing. ;-) It is a usual thing when I don't understand a Russian version of the manual. ;-)

PS: Not speaking about the original version. ;-)

Bye, Stas!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2021

---
* Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

Hi & welcome, Stas! Recently you wrote in a message to alexander koryagin:

please, I am a translator."

Should it be "an interpreter"?

Good question. Strictly speaking, an interpreter works with oral language & a translator works with written language... but many dictionaries seem to imply that the word "translator" is less specific.

Alexander's joke offers no detail about what this man's employers require of him. Perhaps he may be called upon to do either or both.... :-Q




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Stas Mishchenkov:

please, I am a translator."

Should it be "an interpreter"?

I believe both words are correct, but they have a bit
different meaning.

If you interpret a phrase or something you actually
explain it. For instance, we can interpret the events
in Ukraine, according to our point of view.

If the interpreter is expected to demystify what someone is saying as quickly as they can say it, the result could be more of an explanation than what I'd prefer if I'm hoping to read WAR AND PEACE in English. As for what's going on in SomePlace Else, we may get closest to the truth by comparing input from a variety of people who live there & in other parts of the world.... :-)

If you translate you take one form of something and
change it into another form.

Yet I notice that when you translate written material into English you behave in much the same way a professional translator would. You take the time to look things up & discuss with others whether e.g. "satchel" conveys to them what the word means to you, because such details are very important. :-)

Some people tell that an interpreter is a person who works
with the spoken word, whereas a translator works with the
written word.

Lionbridge.com explains the differences quite well. The situation as I see it is much like what I see WRT music. To a student of music history, "classical music" means a particular style composed during a particular era... to the average person, the meaning is much broader. In this case my choice of words depends on how much I believe the audience knows about the subject. :-Q

But it IMHO sounds funny because of course an interpreter
can translate a written text too.

Uh-huh. While some folks choose to specialize in one or the other their preference may depend on their learning style & on how they were taught. AFAIC your use of the word "translator" may be justified in this story if it's what the director thinks he understands &/or if he's surprised to learn that a person whose job description is xxx is capable of doing yyy as well... [grin].




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Ardith Hinton! -> Alexander Koryagin
I read your message from 04.11.2021 23:52

please, I am a translator."

Should it be "an interpreter"?

I believe both words are correct, but they have a bit different
meaning.

If you interpret a phrase or something you actually explain it.
For instance, we can interpret the events in Ukraine, according to
our point of view.

If the interpreter is expected to demystify what someone is saying
as quickly as they can say it, the result could be more of an
explanation than what I'd prefer if I'm hoping to read WAR AND
PEACE in English. As for what's going on in SomePlace Else, we may
get closest to the truth by comparing input from a variety of
people who live there & in other parts of the world....

On Russian TV news programs we see interpreters, too. ;-) They want not
only tell us the news, they want us to understand them as it must be.
So, all the television announcers have behind their shoulders theatre, neuro-lingual, brain-wash, hypnotic courses, and they do their job very effectively. I literally feel how a nasty girl penetrates into my
brain. ;-)

If you translate you take one form of something and change it into
another form.

Yet I notice that when you translate written material into English
you behave in much the same way a professional translator would.
You take the time to look things up & discuss with others whether
e.g. "satchel" conveys to them what the word means to you, because
such details are very important.

As a rule a speech is much simpler than a written text from a book. An interpreter would just said "bag" not thinking too long.

Some people tell that an interpreter is a person who works with
the spoken word, whereas a translator works with the written word.

Lionbridge.com explains the differences quite well. The situation
as I see it is much like what I see WRT music. To a student of
music history, "classical music" means a particular style composed
during a particular era... to the average person, the meaning is
much broader. In this case my choice of words depends on how much I believe the audience knows about the subject.: - Q

Classical music? In Russia at least, it is a very narrow notion. We have
of course Jazz which can be "classical", "modern" etc but when we speak "classical music" we mean a symphony music only.

Bye, Ardith!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2021

---
* Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)